Gwen Dünner: Hello, welcome to a new episode of Logistics People Talk, the official Rhenus podcast for all those who never lose their curiosity when it comes to logistics. Presented by ...
Andrea Goretzki: Andrea Goretzki
Gwen Dünner: and Gwen Dünner.
Andrea Goretzki: The Wind Energy at Sea Act has been in force since 1 January this year. With its help, the German government wants to increase the installed capacity of offshore wind energy to at least 30 gigawatts by 2030 and to at least 70 gigawatts by 2045. Logistics makes a decisive contribution to achieving these goals. It provides for the transport of components and crews and supply runs to offshore platforms as well as additional services such as customs clearance or waste and container management. In today’s episode, we want to take a closer look at everything that is happening off Germany’s coasts in terms of logistics. To do so, we have invited two experts. I would like to welcome to the microphone Heike Winkler, Managing Director of the Bremerhaven Wind Industry Association and Innovation Cluster, and Björn Wittek, Managing Director of Rhenus Offshore Logistics. Welcome to Logistics People Talk. Thank you for taking the time to take us out to sea today.
Björn Wittek: Thank you very much. We are happy to be with you today.
Heike Winkler: Thank you very much. I look forward to the conversation.
Gwen Dünner: Let’s get straight to the topic. Ms Winkler, we have just heard that the German government has set a target of 30 gigawatts of offshore wind energy by 2030. Where do we stand today?
Heike Winkler: Relatively at the beginning. We have installed a little over eight gigawatts in the North Sea and the Baltic Sea. That means we are still a little short of 30 gigawatts. But that’s not all we’re planning either. In fact, the German government would like to have 50 gigawatts installed in the North and Baltic Seas by 2035. That’s still some way off, but we’re looking forward to it. In addition, there will be another four gigawatts of offshore electrolysis. That means there will be a lot to build.
Gwen Dünner: So it is not only offshore wind energy, but also other forms of energy that are included?
Heike Winkler: If they were included, they would be part of the 30 gigawatts. But they are being added. That means even more expansion of offshore wind energy, which we as a wind energy association naturally welcome. But now it is becoming very urgent for the course to be set.
Gwen Dünner: In the introduction, I already mentioned the significant role that logistics plays in the energy transition. What does offshore actually mean in the context of industry beyond the dyke?
Björn Wittek: Beyond the dyke or offshore means, first of all, everything that happens off the coastline. The moment we have an installation in the sea or even in the river and we have to go there with a ship, we are actually offshore. That means we have to use means of transport that have been created specifically for these purposes: ships, platforms, all the way to helicopters. This means that we base things on a completely different logistics than what occurs on land. This is not just an offshore wind-specific issue, but we have offshore wind as part of the installations that take place out in the North Sea and Baltic Sea, or ultimately also globally in the seas. We have oil and gas very broadly broken down in the North Sea, with the exception of Germany. We have other types of energy being generated out there, increasingly wave power plants, sea current power plants. We have, of course, the whole issue of environmental and nature conservation concerns that are also taking place there. Whether that’s about protecting areas with monitoring functions all the way to building similar subjects. These are all activities that in principle simply require specialised tools for transport, construction, installations and the like. What does that mean for us? As logisticians, we have to take a completely different view than we have on land. Where we can simply drive a truck or do something with a forklift, we have to build something completely different. This didn’t just happen yesterday; we actually started to seriously address this issue 15 years ago or more. It is quite clear that we have the ports as a very important interface. Ultimately, nothing happens outside without a port. We need this link between what happens on land, actually the preparation of the goods to be brought out, to be installed, to be put into production. On the other hand, of course, the port is an essential anchor from which to carry out maintenance and service activities. No technical system runs in the long run without being serviced or repaired once. We need these points of departure and exit from what takes place. These are the ports. Within the group, we also have to pay attention to how we are positioned in one place or another.
Andrea Goretzki: Mr Wittek, could you perhaps summarise once again in this context what offshore wind energy encompasses?
Björn Wittek: In the offshore wind sector, we are actually talking about two large segments. One is the actual wind turbine, i.e. the foundation. Nowadays, often a large tube, also called a monopile or jacket, a dissolved lattice structure with the tower on top, with the actual wind turbine and the rotor blades. In order for us to be able to even bring the electricity from offshore on land, where we can actually make use of it, we have to build up quite a complex grid infrastructure. This is a great technical challenge. We are also entering technological frontiers that are taking place today. We don’t just have to build an actual wind farm, the power plant, but everything we need for it as a grid infrastructure. This is an area that we focused on relatively early on. Ultimately, it is always about the aspect of platform supply. The grid infrastructure is represented by large platforms, the converter, whether the entire transformer technology has also been installed. In principle, these are small factories that have been installed and have to be supplied. This is a focus market for us, which we have also concentrated on from the beginning.
Gwen Dünner: We hear that it is very complex in terms of logistics. Ms Winkler, you are also familiar with the topic of offshore wind power from the manufacturers’ side. How do they view the goals of the Federal Government? Mr Wittek just mentioned this problem or the challenge of the limited grid capacity of the power line networks. Do you see similar challenges there?
Heike Winkler: Yes. We as WAB e.V. represent around 250 companies. Our focus is the supplier industry. To preface the explanation, that’s not just the manufacturers, it includes everything. We need the maritime industry for that, as Mr Wittek just said. We need the transmission system operators, many, many small and medium-sized enterprises that are also based here. It’s a lot about regional value creation, which has to be interlinked. Of course, we all see that these are gigantic goals. As already mentioned, from a little more than eight gigawatts to 30 gigawatts. That is already an impressive step. But let me go back further. We had from 2008 until today for these eight gigawatts. Of course, many of these member companies were also active internationally and have also realised offshore wind farms there. Nevertheless, it is a very long time compared to the time from now until 2030 or even until 2035 with the 50 gigawatts. This is a huge challenge. That’s why I spoke earlier about setting the right course. At the same time, there is also the fact that a lot of offshore wind energy is being installed in neighbouring countries and that they also need their own resources. This means that it is very, very important for the domestic value chain to work together closely, use synergies and also promote these goals across industries. Otherwise, it is really very unrealistic. We believe that these goals are achievable. In order to be able to implement them, we are convinced that we have to work together hand in hand on the North Sea and Baltic Sea coasts for the security of supply of the country, but of course also for climate protection.
Gwen Dünner: You just mentioned framework conditions again. Which ones are there additionally, which you say need to be tackled by everyone collaboratively?
Heike Winkler: There must be port capacities. As WAB, we represent 160,000 skilled workers in the onshore wind sector and maritime as well as offshore wind. However, we only need to double the number of employees in the offshore wind industry to be able to achieve these goals. This means that we have to realise recruiting on an oversized scale, push it forward in a really big way. We have to do training marketing, we have to create the port infrastructure. We need the networks, as Mr Wittek said. In the long term, we need pipelines to transport green hydrogen, and we also need shipping solutions. There is a great deal that we have to rely on in this area of logistics. We know that we have very, very competent players on board, such as Rhenus, who are driving these issues forward. But Mr Wittek will also know that these are challenges, powerful dimensions that we want to tackle together.
Andrea Goretzki: Ms Winkler, what you describe already gives an idea that there is already a lot going on off Germany’s coasts. This will probably become even more if we want to achieve the goals we have set. Mr Wittek also said at the beginning that the North Sea is not exclusively available for the installation of wind turbines. There is much, much more. There are designated nature reserves, natural gas is extracted, there are various cable routes and pipelines. Finally, we must not forget that fishing also requires corresponding areas. In other words, there are a multitude of utilisation interests that can also lead to conflicts. Where is there still actual space in the North Sea? Who already has an eye on it?
Heike Winkler: That is, of course, an essential question or issue that you’ve raised. Of course, all users want to be considered equally. But now it says in the legislation that we need offshore wind energy. Offshore wind energy is system-relevant and is also a priority. As the offshore wind industry, we have also always been inclined to initiate co-use talks. Of course, this needs to be deepened. Everyone has a legitimate interest, of course. We would like to promote cooperative solutions. That means we would like to find spaces together with the users, and at best also find common approaches to use in order to be able to realise certain forms of use side by side and also in the same space. This simply requires a great deal of coordination and also many technological solutions. But we also see great opportunities for small and medium-sized enterprises to create value in this area.
Björn Wittek: I would actually always like to coin the term offshore industrial park in this context. Up to now, as is usual for relatively new industries, offshore wind can still be defined as a relatively new industry in this context, we have usually had a relatively singular use. This means that we are focusing on one type of use, which makes sense in the first instance, in order to bring such an industry to maturity and to enable it to operate commercially on the market. Now offshore wind per se is no longer completely new, but has also been around for 15 or 20 years. That means we have already crossed the threshold of becoming an established industry. We should also start thinking about how we can move from this singular use to multiple use. As Ms Winkler just mentioned, competition is simply fierce. We have shipping lanes, we have berths for ships, i.e. shipping companies, where they are simply in position. We have a great deal of construction material mining off our coasts. We need to build pipelines, we need cable routes, we also need fishing grounds. The navy, of course, also needs training areas where they can operate. Here in Germany, it is not yet a big discussion, but the topic of CO2 storage will also be a very important issue in the context of climate change. How we are also able, be it for a temporary period, to capture CO2 or simply store it. We are getting into a situation where the areas that are actually felt to be large are becoming very scarce. There will be no way around looking at how many things I can ultimately put in the same area. In this respect, we have a relatively established planning process. It is led by the Federal Maritime and Hydrographic Agency, the BSH. In the context of maritime spatial planning, there are very complex coordination processes in which all stakeholders involved are asked what is possible and what can be changed. Nevertheless, one must also be aware that we cannot serve all interests equally but instead must prioritise things. However, this is essentially a political conflict that must also be fought out. The more we are able to reconcile the interests of use in a cooperative way, keyword co-use, the fewer these conflicts of use will be, the more interesting it will be for everyone out there to push this forward. For us as logistics experts: the more that happens out there, the more goods movements we will have. Ultimately, this is what we can do.
Heike Winkler: Perhaps I could briefly add something at this point. There are already approaches today that take into account fishing in offshore wind farms, for example. We see that we simply have the chance that fish stocks will recover, to give a very positive example. This means that these synergies can also have a very, very positive effect. Mr Wittek’s prioritisation has now been carried out by the Federal Government. Now we just have to work out solutions together.
Björn Wittek: In this context, we must not only think in the short term. This is indeed an issue that needs to be considered across all electoral periods. How do you deal with such issues? 70 gigawatts is the target for 2045, and it actually feels like even more. But the issue of green hydrogen will also have to be addressed. It won’t work if we keep jumping back and forth from one moment to the next. It’s a typical ‘chop and change’ situation. At the end of the day, that’s fatal for an industry like the one we’re in. Because project implementation periods tend to be between five and ten years. In this context, the question is quite appropriate: are 70 gigawatts in Germany, the North Sea and the Baltic Sea realistic? I believe so, even if it will be exhausting. One tool we will have at the end is repowering, i.e. the replacement of old turbines with new ones. This is something that will slowly happen to us from, I suspect, the mid-30s onwards. Quite simply because the wind farms will also reach the end of their technical service life and will have to be dismantled. That in itself is an extremely complex issue because we have to deal with grid infrastructure and the like. We also need other processes and a completely different infrastructure behind them. But I believe that this is a topic that is so detailed that our waste management colleagues should also be involved in it. We’d better put that in a separate podcast.
Gwen Dünner: That’s what I was about to say, we’ll do another episode about that. We often say that and we always bring in the colleagues for Remondis or TSR. Just like Ms Winkler, I wanted to turn the page back to the positive. The situation is urgent, space at sea and in the ports is scarce. But as already mentioned, there are these co-use concepts and solutions. There are many forms that can be carried out side by side. At the same time, this is not only something that happens at sea or for the manufacturers or for the wind farms themselves, but also in logistics. So I would like to ask Mr Wittek once again how the logistics companies can help to overcome these particular bottlenecks. Are there, for example, concepts that you are already implementing to continue to relieve pressure on the water and in the ports?
Björn Wittek: In my opinion, the energy transition at sea will be decided on land. The ports are the key to this, also for the production chains. In other words, if a large turbine plant is located somewhere, it must also be supplied. On the scale of the components, this will not work without a port or waterborne transport. On the other hand, the finished components have to be transported out. In other words, the port, which is already a key factor, has become even more important for offshore wind or the offshore industry. We will simply run into capacity bottlenecks. Industry and infrastructure, such as ports, have relatively long lead times. To say with a snap of the fingers that I now need five, six, seven new quays, however many are needed, is not a process that is completed within one or two years, but rather we are easily talking about a decade. Because, quite simply, we have the planning processes as well as the construction which physically does not happen from one moment to the next. Once I have installed a sheet pile wall for a new quay and put sand behind it to hold it up – we have natural settling processes – a year will pass very quickly and I won’t be able to do anything. I can pray as much as I like and hope that it will go faster. Certain things are also physically realised. In the next few years, we will not have much choice but to use existing capacities as cleverly as possible. This means that we have to make sure that the productivity per unit area at the berths, which is the key, is as high as possible. That means bringing goods that come in as quickly as possible inland. Be it also in short intermediate transports to an area that is close to the port, perhaps even defined as part of the port area. Because rotor blades that come into our terminal in Cuxport, for example, are not stored temporarily at the quay. They go on a truck and are taken three, four, five kilometres into the hinterland, where they are stored and later collected. This creates capacity for us directly in the port at the berth, which is then available for other imports. This small hint needs to be shared: not only do we want to expand offshore, we also have the goal of doubling the number of turbines onshore by 2030. That, too, will require an enormous number of imports. The PV sector is also expected to grow by 120, 130 gigawatts. These are also cargo flows that have to be handled somehow. We will have to think about concepts downstream in the port or upstream the other way round. That will cost a little more money. This will have to be priced into the projects, so that logistics will become a bit more complex than it is today with even more broken transports. We will look at how we can handle inland bound transports in particular, and perhaps inland waterway bound transports as well. There, too, we are limited somewhat in terms of dimensions and the like. We have to see to what extent we can formulate things much more strongly in order to be able to implement them more quickly in the port in a kind of plug-and-play concept. A very important lever is simply that we try to use existing capacities as efficiently as possible. This can also mean that, in the future, we simply have to ask installation companies to accept that a berth is shared. That no one is given the entire space for their own project and therefore has a productivity of 30, 40 per cent, but we would have the possibility of handling a second project on top of it. Here, too, there will have to be a ‘give and take’. It will mean for all players in the chain that they will have to show flexibility at one point or another in order to be able to realise projects. This is not an issue that is singularly limited to Germany; it is the same for our neighbours. Not only our neighbours, but also if you look at the USA and the Far East – there are enough bottlenecks there that are actually of a similar nature.
Andrea Goretzki: If we now shift our gaze from the offshore part to the onshore part. Mr Wittek said it quite well at the beginning: the future of offshore will be decided onshore. Let’s take another look at the land. In all honesty, wind energy is more of a northern German topic, and not necessarily as popular in southern Germany. Ms Winkler, as a trained journalist, you have dealt a lot with the topic of onshore. In your view, is there also potential for renewable energies in the south?
Heike Winkler: Of course, there is a huge potential of renewables for the south. I am a journalist by trade, but I very quickly switched to the manufacturer, to the PR department. From my retrospective perspective and, for example, from the prototype experience we have gathered on land, I can say that these are very important topics for advancing the south. This is also an area where a great deal of energy is needed. Massive progress can be made here if onshore wind energy is also further expanded. This will also create decentralised solutions for the south. The topic is the one we just had: how do I transport on land, inland waterway transportation. This is a very, very important topic. For example, we at WAB e.V. are currently discussing the national port concept. Inland waterways and hinterland connections are also a very important topic. Onshore logistics is currently under great pressure because there is a lack of solutions for transporting these onshore plants. We are now dealing with turbine sizes of seven megawatts. These are no longer small one-megawatt plants; they are also gigantic structures. It is a solution to enable the provision of the electricity that is needed in the south as quickly as possible. But it is also absolutely necessary for green hydrogen. In other words, one issue is that the south benefits from the expansion of onshore wind energy, and so energy sources can also be created locally relatively quickly. The other issue is that the south benefits from the entire value creation anyway. This means that we have companies in the offshore wind sector, but also in the onshore wind sector. We can see that many companies are located in the south and produce effectively for the north, but also create added value for the southern federal states. Perhaps there needs to be a much stronger focus, a perception of what potential there actually is for Bavaria and Baden-Württemberg. I believe that the time has now come when this is increasingly understood. The north and the south are inseparable. We have to work together to achieve these goals. But also to be able to supply the energy-intensive industry in the south with the necessary electricity and green hydrogen. In other words, this is an important step in the right direction. Ultimately, industry follows energy. If, as Mr Wittek also mentioned, we cannot complete the large cable routes quickly enough, if the energy, the onshore expansion in the south cannot take place quickly enough and thus the energy-intensive industry does not have sufficient energy, there is a definite possibility that some energy-intensive industry will also settle in the coastal locations. One has to be aware of that. Of course, the point is that we have to keep an eye on Germany as a whole and, of course, on neighbouring countries as well. In Germany, we must set an example with the energy transition. We have to bring everyone along with us. Of course, we also have to mobilise skilled workers for onshore expansion. This also applies to the south. This means that we also have to qualify, train and recruit. We have to create logistics solutions. We must also be able to install the parts on site quickly enough and implement projects. And last but not least, we must also involve the population. Our experience is that acceptance at the locations grows significantly with the expansion if jobs are actually associated with it. In this respect, we think it is very, very important to take this into account and to show it. Many people simply do not know what opportunities wind energy offers directly for their location. We simply have to inform people and show them again and again that we as a country have to implement the energy transition together and use all the synergies that are available. We say ‘stronger together’, you can also say it in German. Ideally across all industries. We have to press the gas pedal; now that’s perhaps not quite right, we have to press the give electricity pedal. But we need both, the molecules and the electrons. We need to promote wind in order to position the rest in such a way that we can protect the climate and ensure security of supply in equal measure. This is a concern for us and for our member companies. I think we have really, really, really great players, ingenious companies that can do this. They just need the opportunities to optimally advance this.
Björn Wittek: I would be in favour of us starting to say that the south is in principle complementary to the energy transition. Especially in the south, we have significantly more hours of sunshine than we have in the north. PV, or photovoltaics, is simply more productive overall in the south than in the north. It is exactly the opposite of what we have in the wind energy sector. We simply have better wind potential in the north than we tend to have in the south. Only in order to be able to really link these two major forms of energy production in a meaningful way do we need the cable route, a SuedLink, SuedOstLink, whatever they are all called, in order to ultimately create precisely this balance between the actual productive systems, which are more or less complementary. When the sun is shining, the wind is usually not so strong. When the wind is blowing, we usually have relatively cloudy skies. In other words, we have two forms of energy production that help each other rise to the top. But for this, we also need to have created the infrastructure via the cable routes. Here, too, clearer communication to the population about why, wherefore, and how come is, I believe, absolutely necessary. Perhaps we would also do ourselves a great favour if we didn’t stoically break down the same goal for everyone, but one day said that what is best suited and most productive in your region is at the end of the day also what can contribute most to the energy transition. That, too, brings definitive local acceptance. On the other hand, it is clear that the whole thing will not work without the cable routes. During construction, the landscape will be affected and there will be traffic congestion. We have to set up complete logistics chains. We are not talking about a small lorry with a two-tonne cable drum; instead, the cable drums we are moving weigh 60, 80, 100 tonnes, they are special transports. Here you have a closed road; there you have a reconstructed bridge. It also means digging a trench for weeks with major equipment that is in the process of pulling in cables. In some cases, even high-voltage pylons that are visible. Not everything is an underground cable. In various places, there are also converters or large transformer stations that stretch across hectares. That is also part of the truth. Without this infrastructure, we will not be able to implement the energy transition across the board the way we want to. In this case, Rhenus is also involved as a total logistics provider or as one of the large project logistics providers through Rhenus Projektlogistik in the area of cable routes. For us, this means that we collect the large cable drums from the manufacturers’ plants, often taking them to one of the seaports and then down to ports of entry nearby by inland waterway vessel. This means that the inland ports also play a major role in the energy transition and the last mile to the construction site. We also have some activities on the construction site itself. These are the challenges we face. However, ‘project’ in this case does not mean once or twice what you are used to. It means project processes, some of which run over several years. Here, too, we are still in the starting blocks. A grid connection system that we build in the North Sea, in an order of magnitude of two gigawatts, requires in principle a further corridor to the south, in an order of magnitude of SuedLink or SuedOstLink. This means that if we want to build another 15 systems in the North Sea, we will certainly have to move another ten systems southwards. Even now, assuming that something like hydrogen production will take place more in the north, where the energy is also available. For project logistics, this is certainly an area where a lot will happen over the next ten or fifteen years. We have to make sure that the infrastructure is in place, that the equipment, especially the trucks, are available. We also have to make sure that the approval authorities play along and that they know that this is an essential part of the energy transition.
Andrea Goretzki: It’s a huge feat that’s coming our way. Thank you very much for the deep insights that you both have given us today. I actually have to admit that I was not aware of much of what we have heard today. With all the enthusiasm for saving the climate through the energy transition, I didn’t see the problems or challenges that this can actually bring. To tell the truth, you two are very familiar with the challenges of the coming years as a result of your jobs. What makes you optimists about the energy transition nevertheless?
Heike Winkler: There’s only one way to go and that’s forward. That means we need the energy transition. There are no alternative approaches now that are effective in any form. To put it positively, this is also our future. I have already mentioned energy supply, security of supply, these issues. But we also have to look at it this way: we are talking about huge potential for value creation. That means we can create jobs, we can generate business growth in Germany. Fossil energy also creates gaps. I can contrast this with all the new areas that are emerging as a result of these energy transition approaches, which also close these gaps. This means that it is very, very positive to see that we can, in principle, drive forward such an industrial future in Germany. We can integrate shipyards and shipbuilding in a completely different way. We can use tendering systems to create solutions that also promote domestic value creation. We have great engineers, we have great companies. From my perspective, these are simply also opportunities. They are certainly challenges, you are right. It is also right to point them out. But from my perspective, the opportunities are to be ranked much higher than the challenges. The prioritisation is given in the legislation and not for nothing. It is because we want to do it together and therefore we will do it together. I am confident and look forward to bringing about a real acceleration and to moving forward together with the companies. Thank you very much for this opportunity to discuss this again with you.
Andrea Goretzki: With pleasure. Mr Wittek, are you similarly optimistic?
Björn Wittek: Yes, I am. I think a significant part of it is that a lot of key contracts have been awarded in recent weeks. Particularly on the grid level, both Amprion and TenneT, the two major German grid operators, have placed significant orders for grid connection systems, especially offshore. More will come in the next few weeks, also on the onshore side. This means that a very important part of the realisation of the energy transition has been ordered. This is the first step towards actual implementation. Once we have created the grid capacities, we will also create the wind farms, the PV parks, and perhaps also large electrolysers and the like. This is exactly what we need in terms of technology in order to transform society, and industry in particular, into a more CO2-neutral society. There are still many paths that we have to take. I believe that we should put aside some of our political stubbornness and be more open to technology than we are today. I have to ask myself why we in Germany are the only ones to demonise carbon capture, CCS, when it is simply quite normal in other countries. But we are still not making full use of all the resources we have on the technical side. But I believe that the pressure to act will become so great that politicians will soon realise that they have to give industry much more freedom than is currently the case. It has fulfilled its core task, it has set essential guidelines. Now it is our turn as an industry to deliver. What I see in the background at the moment, both with what has been commissioned, with what is being planned and what has also been initiated in terms of processes within the industry, is that we will see a real wave of major projects in the next few years. Ultimately, these are the very people who are driving the energy transition and the industrial transformation. That makes me very optimistic that we are now on the right path.
Gwen Dünner: I am a bit relieved that it turned out so positive in the end. Because in-between I thought to myself that there were already so many challenges. But I’m glad that it sounds a bit more like Economic Miracle 2.0. At least that would of course be the greatest success for this industry or for Germany as well, for the offshore industry. So once again, many, many thanks to both of you for coming to Logistics People Talk and really for these very, very deep insights, as Ms Goretzki has already said.
Andrea Goretzki: Thank you very much for that.
Gwen Dünner: It was really a pleasure to talk about this, even though the topic is of course not only joyful, but in any case offers a lot of potential for the future. Thank you very much.
Heike Winkler: Thank you.
Björn Wittek: Thank you very much, happy to take a deeper dive on repowering offshore again.
Andrea Goretzki: Absolutely, we have already marked it for ‘follow-up’ here.
Heike Winkler: Economic Miracle 2.0. You hit the nail on the head with that.
Gwen Dünner: With that, we would also like to express our sincere thanks to our listeners. As always, we have a request: please rate, share and comment on the Logistics People Talk episodes on Spotify, Google and Apple Podcasts as well as on our expert blog Logistics People Community. We hope you’ll join us again next time. Best regards from your hosts ...
Andrea Goretzki: Andrea Goretzki.
Gwen Dünner: And Gwenn Dünner.
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